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On 28/08/2016 at 9:31 AM, Stu said:

Cant agree about Elton, Charlie. How is it that he performed well for the Lions?

Because they scored tries and never relied on his kicking ability. Jantjies needs to be stripped of kicking duties and let Goosen take over.

Take Faf for example, for the Lions he always has someone ready to take the pass from his quick ball, but, for the Boks there is rarely anyone. Beast, Strauss, Flo, Oupa all very lazy and not attacking at pace. Kriel is left on the bench for the over rated Louw. Mohoje was lucky that has was not red carded for his ongoing attempt which seemed like a tactic to take Hernandez out of the game.

Like I said on 365 The Bok game vs Oz will be like watching Stevie Wonder take on Ray Charles in a motorbike race.

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19 minutes ago, supersupporter said:

Like I said on 365 The Bok game vs Oz will be like watching Stevie Wonder take on Ray Charles in a motorbike race.

I'm stealing that! :-P

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Different level of rugby in the first place and much more pressure to succeed. He clearly lost his bottle on Saturday.

When put under pressure in Super Rugby he wilted and started shouting at those around him. The game in Jhb against Hurricanes being case in point.

Here is another train of thought:

http://www.iol.co.za/sport/rugby/allister-needed-wake-up-call-to-pick-right-boks-2061833 

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Another thing that I just do not get and that is when the Boks choose to take an up and under when they get a free kick, maybe someone needs to explain that it does not have to be kicked and you can opt for a scrum or even tap and run. But, to kick it away to have a chance of a 50/50 return of possession is just crazy. Bulls used to do that and I still to this date do not get it.

For me when a free kick is awarded there are only 3 scenarios that should be considered and all are dependant on field position

1.Scrum
2.Tap and Run
3. Kick long or out
 

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The Japan game aside, the Boks did reasonably well at RWC 2015. The personnel that have changed are in key areas N0s 8, 9, 10 & 15. 

The leadership of this team has been stripped out.  

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33 minutes ago, supersupporter said:

 

Like I said on 365 The Bok game vs Oz will be like watching Stevie Wonder take on Ray Charles in a motorbike race.

Quote

FALKEAUGE‏@FalkeAuge

"The Bok game vs Oz will be like watching Stevie Wonder take on Ray Charles in a motorbike race." via @SupporterForum @BreytonPaulse

 

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Ugh... They keep on keeping on about Jantjies and running. But the back-line only operated at pace, after Jantjies left the field. The Bullshit Jantjies tries all the time works at the lower levels and in practices where you don't have any opposition. At test level it's another story...

But we come back to the point that Morne is no long term answer. He is a place holder at most. I would have used him to start matches (from 2014) and then bring on Pollard / Lambie / Jantjies / Goosen later on. Even if he got the blame, it would have given the younger players the opportunities to be heroes or zeros, with much less pressure.

I've been a Morne supporter, but he has disappointed me with his lack of assertiveness in general. He is supposed to be a leader, but he is a slave of whichever coach drags him along for the ride. Personally if I were in his position, I would have told Meyer and Coetzee to to select me to play my own game of fuck off... You need to make the decisions on the field, in the heat of the moment. You cannot "plan" to play a "running game" or a "kicking game". That only happens when faced with whatever is in front of you... Fuck the coach, fuck the game-plan and play rugby!!!

 

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I am going to say what I said when HM took over. Coaches need to take and make those tough calls and for me, F.Louw, Habana and Struass need to be put out to pasture.

We need a new direction and for that we need to remove some players.

Strauss needs to be replaced by Marx with a guy like Scarra on the bench

WW needs to be captain.

Kriel needs to start

Snyman from the Bulls needs to be part of the squad and Mosert needs to start with Eben. PSDT can cover loosies, but I do think we need some "mongrels" in this side, guys like Willem Alberts who when they got the ball ran with purpose, that is where Mostert, PsdT and Kriel come in.

DDA needs to be dropped and Rohan jvR needs to be brought in.

You watch the Argies and they pass the ball, the Boks do not pass, too many arrogant saffers there who still thenk we are living in the days where Boks were feared on a rugby field, not anymore, now they are just a laughing stock.

The one thing we all forget is that Morne was a very good flyhalf when he played outside a decent 9. Morne could very well be the calm head that a guy like Faf needs. Especially while another 10 on the bench learns the game from an experienced guy like Morne. What about that 10 from Stormers. Du Plessis, he looks OK.

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Agreed Barns - I have no problem with a game plan which allows for key players in the opposition to be "taken out" (closely marked in polite terms). I also believe that if the coach wants to play in the opposition 22m then the plan is to kick long or high and to apply pressure through chasers. The other way is to kick the ball out and pressure the lineout. 

That said, key players like 9 and 10 must kick accurately and in the knowledge that their support runners are onside.

It seems to me that Coetzee has no clear plan and his "general" has no experience.

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1 minute ago, supersupporter said:

You cannot have a guy like Faf and then approach a game needing a guy like Ruan. If AC is going to pick Faf then have a game pklan to suit.

 

4 minutes ago, Arlecchino said:

It seems to me that Coetzee has no clear plan and his "general" has no experience.

There is no plan...as Arlecchino said... No REAL plan anyway...

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31 minutes ago, Arlecchino said:

Different level of rugby in the first place and much more pressure to succeed. He clearly lost his bottle on Saturday.

When put under pressure in Super Rugby he wilted and started shouting at those around him. The game in Jhb against Hurricanes being case in point.

Here is another train of thought:

http://www.iol.co.za/sport/rugby/allister-needed-wake-up-call-to-pick-right-boks-2061833 

I see he criticises Faf's tactical kicking. There is only one reason why he is kicking.

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Which is what mallet said barlee. Your no 10 have to be like for like unless you start with a Steyn as suggested by Barns.

What concerns me about the "cleanout" you suggest is stripping the experience out of the team. Can you imagine the ABs having to do that when they change a coach?

The truth is that there is no long term plan at SARU and no succession plan in their administration across the country 

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Charlie I would rather lose knowing that the new team will get better, kind of what the Lions did 3 years ago...But what we are seeing now is almost exactly what HM did. Kept hanging on to guys who everyone knows is not good enough.

So for me, I would rather a new side who will learn and grow, but, we cannot have these new guys pick up bad habits from lazy experienced guys, it is not good for their own morale.

I appreciate the need for experienced guys. But, when those experience guys have nothing to offer. What other alternative do we have. But, having said that sadly a new side will get nowere when the coaching staff are not adequate.

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Good points barlee which take me back to the "Plan". The ABs have structures in place across the country which are adopted by each province and franchise. Their coaches attend regular courses and clinics in order to examine changes and the ELVs which are "always" being tested.

Therefore a coach can change from the Highlanders to the Crusaders seamlessly. Players the same. They know the brand of rugby they want to play and everyone buys in.

I think that come next SuperRugby the team to watch will be The Stormers. Robbie Fleck has taken himself over to New Zealand to do some hands on learning. Of course he will not change the World, just the World on the other side of The Hex.

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29 minutes ago, Barnacle said:

Ugh... They keep on keeping on about Jantjies and running. But the back-line only operated at pace, after Jantjies left the field. The Bullshit Jantjies tries all

In addition to that..... when are we going to be relieved of the "release the pressure on Jantjies" story that we have been fed for years now? I did a little test. I Googled "pressure on Jantjies". This was the result. Obviously the first lot of of pages would be the most recent hits. This is the result: https://www.google.co.uk/search?num=30&q="pressure+on+Jantjies"&oq="pressure+on+Jantjies"&gs_l=serp.12...6881.6881.0.9789.1.1.0.0.0.0.88.88.1.1.0....0...1c.1.64.serp..0.0.0.aqgDFfux7iI

 I then adjusted the search dates to between 1 Jan 2012 and 31 Dec 2013. This is the result. https://www.google.co.uk/search?q="pressure+on+Jantjies"&num=30&source=lnt&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A01%2F01%2F2012%2Ccd_max%3A31%2F12%2F2013&tbm=

Of course not all the items in the search result do not exactly deal with the topic of releasing pressure on Jantjies during game time, i.e. by following a specific game plan to suit him where there is less pressure on him or finding the right players inside/outside of him, but there are a hell of a lot addressing pressure on him. FFS, Errol Tobias recently decided that Faf de Klerk is the culprit. That despite the fact that all and sundry have been claiming for ages that the Jantjies/De Klerk partnership was the alpha and the omega for the Boks because of their long and successful partnership at the Lions.

40 minutes ago, Barnacle said:

But we come back to the point that Morne is no long term answer. He is a place holder at most. I would have used him to start matches (from 2014) and then bring on Pollard / Lambie / Jantjies / Goosen later on. Even if he got the blame, it would have given the younger players the opportunities to be heroes or zeros, with much less pressure.

Eggzaggerly. That is one of the mistakes that I have always been holding Heyneke Meyer responsible for. Especially when the hype around Pollard started. I have noticed that, suddenly, everybody cannot wait for Pollard to be fit again. That is not going to help us one iota. Not with "Suutjiespoep Coetzee en sy makkers" in any case.

44 minutes ago, Barnacle said:

I've been a Morne supporter, but he has disappointed me with his lack of assertiveness in general.

I echo that 100% but then again, can one really blame him? But....... that makes this a fact as well:

45 minutes ago, Barnacle said:

Personally if I were in his position, I would have told Meyer and Coetzee to to select me to play my own game of fuck off...

I have said the same more than a year ago. If I was him, I would have told Heyneke Meyer to piss off when he announced the RWC squad. Hell, even for the 2015 RC as well.

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17 minutes ago, supersupporter said:

I think if we had the right coaching staff they would get the most out of players.

Not with this bunch and I don't mean that to rubbish the players as individual human beings. It is not really their fault, if at all.

They are the of victims of circumstances that started to develop years ago. Many years ago. 

I do not see any international coach getting dramatically better results. 

Edited by vlagman

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17 minutes ago, supersupporter said:

I think if we had the right coaching staff they would get the most out of players.

Which is exactly what we have been saying here for years.

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20 minutes ago, vlagman said:

In addition to that..... when are we going to be relieved of the "release the pressure on Jantjies" story that we have been fed for years now? I did a little test. I Googled "pressure on Jantjies". This was the result. Obviously the first lot of of pages would be the most recent hits. This is the result: https://www.google.co.uk/search?num=30&q="pressure+on+Jantjies"&oq="pressure+on+Jantjies"&gs_l=serp.12...6881.6881.0.9789.1.1.0.0.0.0.88.88.1.1.0....0...1c.1.64.serp..0.0.0.aqgDFfux7iI

 I then adjusted the search dates to between 1 Jan 2012 and 31 Dec 2013. This is the result. https://www.google.co.uk/search?q="pressure+on+Jantjies"&num=30&source=lnt&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A01%2F01%2F2012%2Ccd_max%3A31%2F12%2F2013&tbm=

Of course not all the items in the search result do not exactly deal with the topic of releasing pressure on Jantjies during game time, i.e. by following a specific game plan to suit him where there is less pressure on him or finding the right players inside/outside of him, but there are a hell of a lot addressing pressure on him. FFS, Errol Tobias recently decided that Faf de Klerk is the culprit. That despite the fact that all and sundry have been claiming for ages that the Jantjies/De Klerk partnership was the alpha and the omega for the Boks because of their long and successful partnership at the Lions.

Eggzaggerly. That is one of the mistakes that I have always been holding Heyneke Meyer responsible for. Especially when the hype around Pollard started. I have noticed that, suddenly, everybody cannot wait for Pollard to be fit again. That is not going to help us one iota. Not with "Suutjiespoep Coetzee en sy makkers" in any case.

I echo that 100% but then again, can one really blame him? But....... that makes this a fact as well:

I have said the same more than a year ago. If I was him, I would have told Heyneke Meyer to piss off when he announced the RWC squad. Hell, even for the 2015 RC as well.

HTF is it Faf's fault?

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6 minutes ago, taipan said:

HTF is it Faf's fault?

http://www.planetrugby.com/news/tobias-defends-under-fire-jantjies/

Tobias defends under-fire Jantjies

Former Springbok fly-half Errol Tobias says Elton Jantjies deserves two more Tests in the number 10 jersey to prove his aptitude for the role.

Tobias said he would pick Jantjies in at least two more Tests and if he remains inconsistent, questions need to be asked about the quality of coaching he is receiving.

While Jantjies has generally played well for the Lions in Super Rugby, he has blown hot and cold for the Springboks.

"Go look at the fly-halves who played before Elton. Pat Lambie and Handre Pollard were not perfect fly-halves; they also had weaknesses," Tobias told Netwerk24.

"We know that playing for the Springboks brings a different kind of pressure. I don't believe something is wrong with Elton's mental preparation before Tests. But the question that needs to be asked is whether or not he is good enough to be consistent at Test level.

"We have to look at his skill level. When I was still playing I could kick with my right and left foot. Elton can only kick with his left foot and opposition teams take advantage of that. When he does kick with his right foot, he positions himself incorrectly. He will have to work on that because he exposes himself when he uses his right foot."

Tobias doesn't believe South Africa will be a threat for New Zealand and Australia in the Rugby Championship.

He said Springbok coach Allister Coetzee needed to get his selections right, not just with Jantjies but with other positions as well. He acknowledged that Johan Goosen, who started at full-back in the first Test against Argentina, could be moved to fly-half but Tobias would like to see Jantjies should a few more opportunities to prove himself.

Tobias said people shouldn't just focus on Jantjies but also look at his half-back partner Faf de Klerk.

"As energetic as Faf is, his feet isn't always planted correctly when he has to give the ball to Elton under pressure. We shouldn't be sentimental but rather speak the truth. Faf isn't good with his feet. He can't relieve pressure on Elton with tactical kicks and it's something he needs to work on," he added.

"I want to ask South African fans to look at Elton as a fly-half from a balanced point of view and realise that Faf also has weaknesses."

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The bottom line is that Jantjies does not have BMT while Faf does.

And why does Faf have to relieve the pressure on Jantjies?

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27 minutes ago, vlagman said:

Tobias said people shouldn't just focus on Jantjies but also look at his half-back partner Faf de Klerk.

"As energetic as Faf is, his feet isn't always planted correctly when he has to give the ball to Elton under pressure. We shouldn't be sentimental but rather speak the truth. Faf isn't good with his feet. He can't relieve pressure on Elton with tactical kicks and it's something he needs to work on," he added.

Says the asshole who was a perfect flyhalf..NOT!

 

Cape Town - Sport24’s Herman Mostert highlights FIVEtalking points following the Springboks’ 26-24 Rugby Championship defeat to Argentina in Salta.

1. Bok rugby is bleeding

If the alarm bells weren’t ringing for some before this past weekend, then they’re doing so loud and clear this week!

Springbok rugby is in crisis, seemingly heading in the same direction as the period in the early 2000s when Rudolf Straeuli was national coach.

In recent times, the Boks have lost to Wales, lost to Argentina for the first time (in SA), Japan at the Rugby World Cup, Ireland on home soil and to Argentina in Argentina, again for the first time ever - all matches they would have won at a canter a few years back.

In the Straeuli-era, the Boks lost by record margins to England (53-3, London - 2002) and the All Blacks (52-16, Pretoria - 2003) and we can expect similar scores in future if things carry on like they are at present.

I remember after that drubbing against England 14 years ago, a local Afrikaans newspaper had the following headline on its front page the following day: Bok rugby bloei.

2. Captaincy conundrum?

As was the case when John Smit kept Bismarck du Plessis out the team in 2010/11, the Boks are seemingly heading in the same direction with current captain, Adriaan Strauss.

Strauss’ form has taken a significant dip in 2016 and one wonders for how long he’ll be able to hold down a starting spot in the team.

The Lions’ Malcolm Marx was by far the best South African hooker in Super Rugby, but unfortunately he’s not even on the Springbok bench...

3. Problems at flyhalf

It was unfortunately another error-ridden performance from Elton Jantjies at flyhalf. The Lions pivot just cannot seem to replicate his Super Rugby form in the Test arena.

He again missed crucial kicks at goal and one wonders whether coach Allister Coetzee’s patience will run out with Jantjies - who also struggled for form when he played under Coetzee at the Stormers a few seasons back.

Jantjies injured his groin and will undergo a scan to determine his availability but it will worry Coetzee that his replacement on Saturday, Morne Steyn, also missed crucial kicks at goal, as well as a drop attempt.

Johan Goosen is the other option at flyhalf and Coetzee must be scratching his head about who to pick at flyhalf.

4. Someone tell Oupa to tackle low!

Loose forward Oupa Mohoje was one of the better Springboks over the two horror Tests against Los Pumas, but his tackling technique needs to be addressed.

I counted four high tackles from Mohoje in the defeat in Salta and unfortunately the final one proved costly when he conceded the penalty which gave Argentina victory.

Had the referee acted against Mohoje earlier in the game, the above-mentioned scenario could have been avoided.

Mohoje was promptly issued with a citing commissioner warning after the match and hopefully he’s learnt his lesson.

5. What Bok game plan?

It's tough to fathom exactly what game plan the Springboks are trying to employ at present.

Coach Coetzee earlier this year said he would attempt to merge the traditional strengths of Bok rugby - powerful forwards and a strong kicking game - with a more expanded, ball in hand approach.

Unfortunately he's getting it horribly wrong, with either of the styles coming to the fore.

Victor Matfield, speaking in the SuperSport studio after the game, questioned why the Boks had not once opted for a driving maul off a lineout.

There was also no build-up of phases and when the ball did go wide, the players' execution left much to be desired.

The Boks are clearly caught between two styles of play and not sure what to do on the field.

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Jantjies - who also struggled for form when he played under Coetzee at the Stormers a few seasons back.

Says it all really.

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