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Barnacle

Super Rugby 2017 - Lions

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taipan    1,494

Congrats Lions. You did us proud.

thanks to all the Sharks and Bulls supporters for backing us up.

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Mata Hari    491

Ja, red cards cost trophies...ask SBW...and now Kwagga...

:36_1_38:

However, commendable effort by the team left on the field. Certainly felt they did the Saffers proud. The Crusaders did nothing in the 2nd half (they didn't have to)...

Fare thee well Ackers..SA Rugby will miss you...I hope Mitchell can revive the Bulls the way he and Ackers did to the LIons...

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J1M1    578

No regrets.............the food was great!!

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J1M1    578

 

Some interesting comments.............similar to those of Nick Mallett?

Kwagga red card angers Ackermann

by Brenden Nel 05 August 2017, 21:44

Emirates Lions coach Johan Ackermann called for an overhaul of the red card system after his flanker Kwagga Smith was sent off the field for colliding with Crusaders fullback David Havili in the air during the Lions' 17-25 loss in Saturday’s Vodacom Super Rugby final.

Ackermann said he disagreed with the card, as it was against “common sense” and physics and believed that a more suitable punishment could have been worked out after the game.

The Lions had to play for 42 minutes with 14 men against the Crusaders, who became the first side in Super Rugby history to cross the Indian Ocean to win a final outside their own country.

Ackermann said while he understood it was to the letter of the law, he disagreed with the red card.

“I made a point when Robbie Coetzee got a red card – how I feel about red cards. I don’t think 62 000 people pay to see a 15 versus 14 game – the player can get disciplined afterwards and I will stand by that, especially if it is not outside the law like a kick in the face or a punch, or dirty play,” he told journalists after the game.

“Again, I can’t say too much because one has to respect what the officials say, but one must take into account that if a player jumps in the air forward, where does he go if someone touches his legs. But I suppose the New Zealand people are happy now that Jaco Peyper is a good ref, because last week he wasn’t a good ref.”

“Rudolf Straeuli summed it up because when he (Kwagga) was man of the match four times, everyone loved him, so why would that change?

"Again it is an interpretation about physics and a law, and people – that’s my problem – a law says one thing but common sense says another thing but anyhow. He is a great player, he was tremendous for us through the whole season, we can’t judge him by one incident.

"We still respect and love him as a person. What he brings to the team off the field as well – people always say what a player brings on the field, but off the field he is a great character and great for the team, so that won’t change.”

The Lions coach, who leaves for Gloucester this coming week to take up a coaching position there, said he was disappointed with the result, but that his team would not be “defined by one match.”

“We’re very disappointed and one’s heart is sore, that’s not how we wanted to end it. But Jaco Kriel said it earlier in the week. This team will not be defined by one match and to get to a final you have to do some things right.

"This team – I love them to bits, I love each individual, the way they supported me as a coach. And although the result didn’t go our way, I asked them at halftime not to give up, to keep fighting and we did that at the end. You even got the feeling that if the game was a bit longer, we would have pulled it off, so to me that was quite satisfying, that they never gave up.

“But it is emotional because this is the last time I’m going to be in the change-room with these guys, and I have to walk away from special people, from a special group of players, from a special management and a special union.

“It’s a tough one but that is sport hey, sport is defined by small moments and I experienced that as a player in 2007, where one or two kicks cost us to not look after the ball and Bryan Habana scored and tonight again, the players will look back at this game and say there was one or two moments that the game slipped away from us.

“The red card definitely and the first try that they scored. For the first try we did all the playing, and then we lost the ball in the ruck and they scored against the run of play.

"I think that gave them a lot of confidence and obviously there were one or two things where we had a lineout close to the tryline, and credit to them they contested it.

"Rohan Janse van Rensburg lost the ball close to the tryline and it would have brought the scorelines close, but those small little moments are what finals are all about. Getting those three, four opportunities and not using them.”

Ackermann will leave this Wednesday for Gloucester after a farewell with the side is planned.

© supersport.com

 

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vlagman    950

The laws did not cause the red card. The referee didn't cause the read card. The Crudaders didn't do it either. The player did it himself. 

Individual actions by individual players have all kinds of consequences for the team. Individual players cause penalties which have consequences for their teams. Individual players make handling errors which have consequences for their teams. Individual players make mistakes which warrants red cards which have consequences for their teams. If you come with all kinds of solutions that would keep 15 players on the field, you make a mockery of efforts to stamp out serious transgressions. You could just as well discard the red card and replace it with a yellow card. 

There is also another issue. Suppose a player deliberately takes out a key opposition player and he gets a red card and he is then replaced by another player in order to keep it 15 v 15. Which team has been punished the most? The team who lost their key player or the team who still have 15 players on the field?

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taipan    1,494
4 hours ago, vlagman said:

The laws did not cause the red card. The referee didn't cause the read card. The Crudaders didn't do it either. The player did it himself. 

Individual actions by individual players have all kinds of consequences for the team. Individual players cause penalties which have consequences for their teams. Individual players make handling errors which have consequences for their teams. Individual players make mistakes which warrants red cards which have consequences for their teams. If you come with all kinds of solutions that would keep 15 players on the field, you make a mockery of efforts to stamp out serious transgressions. You could just as well discard the red card and replace it with a yellow card. 

There is also another issue. Suppose a player deliberately takes out a key opposition player and he gets a red card and he is then replaced by another player in order to keep it 15 v 15. Which team has been punished the most? The team who lost their key player or the team who still have 15 players on the field?

I might argue that the laws did cause the red card. I am not disputing that it was correct under the current laws, but there is reason to review the player in the air rule. When a player running at full pace launches himself, not only high in the air, but also considerably down the field, the opposing player does not have much room to manoeveur in. To me it was clear that Kwagga attempted to stop to avoid the collision.    Basically his only chance to avoid a card was to leap into the air as well, which would probably led to a more serious incident.

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Mata Hari    491

Yeah. If the LIons had not been so far behind when the card was handed out they might have prevailed....All history now...

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Owen Meany    556
8 minutes ago, Mata Hari said:

Yeah. If the LIons had not been so far behind when the card was handed out they might have prevailed....All history now...

Hulle begin nog heel jaar stadig. Dit het hulle ingehaal op die ou end. 

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J1M1    578

Fairy tales don't always end well.......sob!!

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Barnacle    530
23 hours ago, taipan said:

I might argue that the laws did cause the red card. I am not disputing that it was correct under the current laws, but there is reason to review the player in the air rule. When a player running at full pace launches himself, not only high in the air, but also considerably down the field, the opposing player does not have much room to manoeveur in. To me it was clear that Kwagga attempted to stop to avoid the collision.    Basically his only chance to avoid a card was to leap into the air as well, which would probably led to a more serious incident.

Sad that it had to happen at this time when so much was at stake. More so when the Lions supporter are probably the least arrogant and vocal (probably due to the "recent" (10 year) past.

But I do not believe the red card had much of an influence on the outcome in the end. If anything, it woke the Lions from their first half slumber.

The influence of a red/yellow card is much more mental than physical. In 15s the field is crowded anyway and half the time some player is lying on the ground somewhere taking a rest or walking around aimlessly in any case. Most teams would be able to handle even playing with 13, if they are mentally prepared for it. On the other side of the coin, some teams completely fall apart mentally when confronted with the situation. The fact that the Lions "stayed in the game" proves that it had very little effect, if any...

One can go on to speculate about what if's, but's and maybe's, but it is not going to change the outcome.

---

My views on the topic of accidental impacts are well known and personally I also feel the the man in the air also voluntarily placed himself in that position, so if he gets injured it is a risk he accepted, when he decided to jump. Of course one could the arsehole who would intentionally try to tackle someone in the air, but you will still get borderline cases where it is not 100% clear.

But as I said in another thread that something like this will happen to a team one/some of us support sooner than we think. I also said that we would not need to wait long... And it happened about 1 month after... The sad thing is that most of us support these measures, until it influences the team we support. Then we going into long debates bout how it should be changed.... But when it influences the opposition, we don't give a crap...

I can go into a long philosophical discussion, but rugby ends up being the loser due to all the technicalities in the long run...

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vlagman    950

@Barnacle Exactly. In short, get back to the basics and stop trying to fix things that wasn't broken in the first place. That is what got the laws in such a technical state that it has become. 

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supersupporter    828

WR often refer to player safety and there are still many aspects of this game where they can quite simply alter the rules to make it safer.

Take Kwagga's scenario which we have seen 1000 times before when this was not considered dangerous but now it is.

So for me

1. A player should only be allowed to run and jump if it is safe to do so, and that means attacker and defender.
2. If it is a contestable situation like Kwagga had then the players (both) have to stop and jump, the player that jumps into a dangrous situation should be penalised.

What makes it dangerous? More than one player who can take the ball clean, if there is one player or more from each side who is realistically in a position to contest then the situation is dangerous making it a stop and jump or even have  asupport player lifting.

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DbDraad    616

I've always been against the current red card system. Not too fond of yellows either. I believe a professional sport can come up with better ways to sanction dirty play. 

Having said that, before we even start contemplating any changes in the laws, we should first work on applying the existing laws consistantly.  Some laws are deemed more import and than others. Some interpretations are changed by the flavour of the month officiating bosses, others are simply ignored... bizarre as hell! Animal Farm Circus!

Edited by DbDraad
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vlagman    950
13 hours ago, DbDraad said:

I've always been against the current red card system. Not too fond of yellows either. I believe a professional sport can come up with better ways to sanction dirty play. 

Having said that, before we even start contemplating any changes in the laws, we should first work on applying the existing laws consistantly.  Some laws are deemed more import and than others. Some interpretations are changed by the flavour of the month officiating bosses, others are simply ignored... bizarre as hell! Animal Farm Circus!

That is the nature of laws. Murder is more important than a parking fine.  

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taipan    1,494

I see Kwagga got 4 matches as well. Is that fair? Wasn't the losing of the match enough? I think all agreed the offence was not intentional.

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J1M1    578
2 minutes ago, taipan said:

I see Kwagga got 4 matches as well. Is that fair? Wasn't the losing of the match enough? I think all agreed the offence was not intentional.

Unbelievable! Way too harsh a sentence.So this was as serious as SBW's elbow? Not while I have a hole in my bum!!

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taipan    1,494
3 minutes ago, J1M1 said:

Unbelievable! Way too harsh a sentence.So this was as serious as SBW's elbow? Not while I have a hole in my bum!!

And I see The AB's have told WR to take a hike and that the practice match will count as part of SBW's ban.

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supersupporter    828

That AB game is an absolute farce and the reason that he has been allowed that game as part of his suspension is a joke, plus it is not even one side, it is 2 teams either half vs the All Blacks.

What I find worrying is the punishment is dictated by how the player lands and IMHO that should not dictate the outcome of the ban, because how lucky or unluckily the player lands does not make the act less or more dangerous.

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DbDraad    616
8 hours ago, vlagman said:

That is the nature of laws. Murder is more important than a parking fine.  

No, the sanction is more severe, but you still get fined for illegal parking. The whole "Zero Tolerance Policy" in New York Policing illustrated the importance of applying all laws equally. Full extent of the Law!

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supersupporter    828

If you shoot a guy in the toe or shoot him in the neck and he survives, they are treated as attempted murder.

In rugby if the guy who is played in the air lands safely or dangerously they are sanctioned differently. How the guy lands for me should not dictate a red or yellow, if the guys lands on his side or neck should both be penalised the same if they want to stamp this out of the game. 

If they cannot get that right then abolish the rules and let's get back to rugby. Players should also stop fucking milking these situations, this is rugby not sissie football..

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