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taipan

Springbok Squad

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vlagman    914
1 hour ago, Chaotic said:

Eben Etzebeth ( Walking Yellow Card),

How many yellow cards has he had in his career?

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Barnacle    511

Just tried to play around with the squad list and... NO! JUST NO!

While it's possible to manufacture a reasonably decent forward pack out of this group, the back-line inspires very little confidence. A number of players are just good enough to fill in a gap for an injured super start in a match or two, but they will never be dominant players or become "stars" in the long run. They  plainly just don't have it.

AND THEN YOU HAVE THE COACHING!

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taipan    1,432
3 minutes ago, Barnacle said:

Just tried to play around with the squad list and... NO! JUST NO!

While it's possible to manufacture a reasonably decent forward pack out of this group, the back-line inspires very little confidence. A number of players are just good enough to fill in a gap for an injured super start in a match or two, but they will never be dominant players or become "stars" in the long run. They  plainly just don't have it.

AND THEN YOU HAVE THE COACHING!

Klop. 

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Arlecchino    503

I admire Warren Whiteley. He is an immensely hard worker and gives as much if not more than most on the park. I simply do not rate him as a Test Match No 8. I look around the World and compare him to others in his position and to be honest the best in his position is the Argentinian youngster Facundo Isa. Read probably next and then Billy Vunipola.

I guess what counts quite a lot is the way that a coach sets up his team to play. Some coaches saw Willem Alberts as a Number 8 - I never did. For me the perfect blueprint no matter what era was the trio of Tom Bedford, Piet Greyling and Jan Ellis - simply imperious.

In many ways Whiteley plays like a young Morne du Plessis - a bit of a seagull. Never really committing to the role of ball carrier or first line tackler. Stands off a bit and then gets involved at the break down. 

Duane Vermeulen caught my attention in 2005 when playing for the Pumas. he had all of the hallmarks of a classic No 8 - his positional play off the ball was instinctively perfect. he got involved at crucial times and knew when to stand back and not commit to a lost cause at the breakdown.

He first played a major role for the Emerging Boks in 2009 against the Lions and that game was drawn 13 each. Vermeulen was immense.

Injuries blighted his 2011 and early 2012 seasons, however, after playing just 9 games of Super Rugby, was selected as part of Heyneke Meyer's squad for the away leg of the Rugby Championship.

Vermeulen has twice won the Currie Cup, in 2007 with Freestate and in 2012 with Western Province.

In 2014, he was one of five nominees for the IRB Player of the Year award. He was then named captain of the Stormers for the 2015.

He currently captains a very experienced and highly respected Toulon squad in the French Top 14. 

I wonder if anybody would have complained had Francois Louw been fit and picked as captain?

 It is also strange as I pointed out in another thread, how Ruan Combrinck has been left out of the Bok squad despite a blinding return to The Lions starting 15 and yet Jako Kriel who is still officially injured makes the squad? The answer is that Coetzee is unbalanced hence the imbalances in his selections.

I am glad that Barns and I see this team in the same light - lightweight.

Our salvation lies in the selection of the French team.

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Arlecchino    503

I am not sure that I would agree that the A side would beat a first choice Bok team even from Coetzee's lamentable selections.

How would they line up? I would pick from Coetzee's motley mob:

Jesse Kriel, Dillyn Leyds, Jan Serfontein, Frans Steyn, Courtnall Skosan, Elton Jantjies, Francois Hougaard.

Warren Whiteley, Duane Vermeulen, Jaco Kriel, Pieter-Steph du Toit, Eben Etzebeth, Frans Malherbe, Chiliboy Ralapelle, Tendai Mtawarira.

I will not list the subs as it then becomes too depressing. This team at least gives us 404 caps to start.

I do not believe for one second that this is how Coetzee will start.

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Mata Hari    483
2 hours ago, taipan said:

Nobody can seriously debate who is the better captain between Whitely and Vermeulen.

Yes, there are debates re the matter. Charlie has just given one. No one has to agree with him or with you, but there are opinions as to the one or the other

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taipan    1,432
5 minutes ago, Mata Hari said:

Yes, there are debates re the matter. Charlie has just given one. No one has to agree with him or with you, but there are opinions as to the one or the other

It was a figure of speech.

Most people who follow rugby acknowledge Whiteley's leadership skills. He has captained the top team in the country for 2 years and has also shown decisive decision making skills. In addition we will not have a foreign based player as captain, so actually there is no debate as Vermeulen doesn't even qualify.

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vlagman    914
1 minute ago, taipan said:

It was a figure of speech.

Most people who follow rugby acknowledge Whiteley's leadership skills. He has captained the top team in the country for 2 years and has also shown decisive decision making skills. In addition we will not have a foreign based player as captain, so actually there is no debate as Vermeulen doesn't even qualify.

I have never rated Duane Vermeulen as a captain. What are his "captaining credentials"? Fokol.

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supersupporter    798
14 minutes ago, Mata Hari said:

Most of the players in the Bok team, are, let's say it, there for their race. End of.

PsdT, Eben, Serfontein, Kriel, Hougaard,Malherbe are all white..sadly the selection issues are primarily with white players, even last year, it was the white guys who were not pulling their weight.

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Arlecchino    503

It simply astonishes me how we in South Africa have flung our principles out of the window in favour of being PC. For that read cowardly BS. A bloody shovel is what it is.

We make selections in business matters based on this crap and end up watching the fallout on TV.

What ever happened to pick the best man for the job? In addition I have never believed in sending a boy to do a man's job. 

 

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taipan    1,432
Just now, vlagman said:

I have never rated Duane Vermeulen as a captain. What are his "captaining credentials"? Fokol.

I have no clue what his captaincy credentials are. I saw a lot of waffling about his playing skills which was not the matter up for debate.

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supersupporter    798

Toulon are not really a  side that boasts much with excitement and skill, they are just a side who has an owner with lots of money, but I do not often see them putting out performances like we see from the Lions.

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vlagman    914
2 minutes ago, taipan said:

I have no clue what his captaincy credentials are. I saw a lot of waffling about his playing skills which was not the matter up for debate.

There is this myth that an excellent salesman will automatically be a great sales manager as well.......

Edited by vlagman

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supersupporter    798
2 minutes ago, Arlecchino said:

It simply asonishes me how we in South Africa have flung our principles out of the window in favour of being PC. For that read cowardly BS. A bloody shovel is what it is.

We make selections in business matters based on this crap and end up watching the fallout on TV.

What ever happened to pick the best man for the job? In addition I have never believed in sending a boy to do a man's job. 

 

Then by that logic Vermeulen should not be there, is he really the right man for the job? Eben should not be there, neither should many, but one thing is for sure, there are plenty there who do deserve to be there and the captain is one.

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taipan    1,432
2 minutes ago, vlagman said:

There is this myth that an excellent salesman will automatically be a great sales manager as well.......

Unfortunately Vermeulen suffers from the great South African malaise. He sees an opposition player as a gap to run through.

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Arlecchino    503

This is always going to be blighted by politics and or regional loyalty.

It is clear to a blind man that this is not the best squad that could have been picked and I really do not want to descend into a personal squabble which is brewing here.

This in my humble opinion is not a good squad, Coetzee is not a good coach, and I have serious reservations about his assistants.

But hey, the proof of the pudding.  

I must add just one other factor: too many of us sit in front of a TV and take what we see in front of us as the full picture. The TV director follows the ball. You do not see what players do off the ball - almost 90% of their time a certain few positions apart.

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Barnacle    511

I just have a problem with the idea of "ball in hand" or "running" rugby  vs. "kicking" rugby. They are basing selections on "either/or" and not "and". Good players are those who can adjust to both styles of play. Many of the selections are limited in their ability to adapt. And that is our weakness. If you play rugby correctly, you might switch between the two "approaches" not once or twice during a match, but you should be able to switch as many times as necessary to WIN!

They need to select the best and most skilled RUGBY players... not "running rugby players" or kicking rugby players, as they only have 50% of the required skill set to be effective...

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taipan    1,432
3 minutes ago, Barnacle said:

I just have a problem with the idea of "ball in hand" or "running" rugby  vs. "kicking" rugby. They are basing selections on "either/or" and not "and". Good players are those who can adjust to both styles of play. Many of the selections are limited in their ability to adapt. And that is our weakness. If you play rugby correctly, you might switch between the two "approaches" not once or twice during a match, but you should be able to switch as many times as necessary to WIN!

They need to select the best and most skilled RUGBY players... not "running rugby players" or kicking rugby players, as they only have 50% of the required skill set to be effective...

Aye, if I hear one more idiot talk about switching from plan A to plan B........

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vlagman    914
4 minutes ago, Barnacle said:

I just have a problem with the idea of "ball in hand" or "running" rugby  vs. "kicking" rugby. They are basing selections on "either/or" and not "and". Good players are those who can adjust to both styles of play. Many of the selections are limited in their ability to adapt. And that is our weakness. If you play rugby correctly, you might switch between the two "approaches" not once or twice during a match, but you should be able to switch as many times as necessary to WIN!

They need to select the best and most skilled RUGBY players... not "running rugby players" or kicking rugby players, as they only have 50% of the required skill set to be effective...

Comes back to the old kicking flyhalf v running flyhalf argument. One who can only do one or the other, is one who is a poor decision maker, IMO. Then again...you have those who try to do both but he cannot do either well because he is just a kak decision maker. Like Pollard for instance.

 

 

[Running for cover....... :bounce:]

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