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Speaking of stick.........isn't he supposedly the back-line coach?

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32 minutes ago, supersupporter said:

If Eddie Jones can take England to where they are now in World Rugby in such a short amount of time then I see no reason why AC cannot put together a side who can beat an Argentinian side that after all is not that good. Let's not beat about the bush but those Argies have been together all year and only narrowly beat a poor performing Bok side at home.

I beg to differ. This is like comparing chalk and cheese. Eddie Jones is finding himself in a much different position than what AC is in. 

Although I am by no means saying that there is any excuses for AC because there are none whatsoever. He is a kak coach finish and klaar. Our problem is that had he taken over the Jake White squad at the end of 2007, his results would probably have been no better than what that of PDV were. Many other coaches would have retained the RWC in 2011 with what Jake White left behind from the 2007 squad. PDV was never going to achieve that and I doubt whether AC would have been able to do it.

Having said that, and to come back to Elton Jantjies and his England squad v AC and his Bok squad. EJ, for starters, do not have the outside forces that AC has. EJ is not sitting with players who have the poor skills sets that the SA players have. EJ has retained the good squad that was put together by Stuart Lancaster, which he strengthened with a few additions. Then he made a few tweaks in their game and their approach to the game and he also, by the look of things, seems to have been able to make a few tweaks to the mindsets of the players. 

Let us not be fooled, despite his "geriatrics" HM came close to having the best available. Yes, he did not have numbers of Lions players in his squad but those players only really came to light at towards the end of his tenure and of course I will get reminded of this, that and the other player that did not make the RWC squad but those players would not have won us the 2015 RWC. Let me remind you that we came within two points of kicking out NZ and getting into the final. That was against the eventual winners and with a team that was vastly different form the one that lost to Aus in the 2011 QF and light-years away from the 2007 champs. That was also despite some really kak defence and some really stupid mistakes during the game. In addition, it was also against, arguably, the best AB side ever. Yes, we did loose to Japan but that did not matter in the end because we still won the pool and we ended the same way that we would, had we beat Japan. I sometimes wounder if it would not have been better if we dropped down to second in our pool.

There is no way that AC is going to achieve that. Bottom line is that we are stuffed with this bunch of players and with this coaching set-up. A few additions to the squad and a few changes/additions to the coaching set-up is not going to help us one iota. Fokol. I seriously doubt that Elton Jantjies would have been able to change a lot. Not with transformation in mind. We would probably not have been as kak as we are at the moment but we would not have shaped against NZ, Aus and England. We have already shown that we are even suspect against Argentina at the moment.

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Coetzee will never be any better than a journeyman coach.

I agree with both opinions and Barnacle, Flag and I have been saying that the problem lies at SARU. 

So blaming Coetzee or Meyer is like saying that a man is a poor carpenter if he can't plane a piece of wood when you give him a blunt chisel.

That said I partially agree with barlee although to be fair Eddie Jones was given a team of good, experienced players and just changed their game plan and attitude.

There is a lot to be said in favour of having a person as coach who has been in the trenches. Kitch Christie never played Bok rugby and neither did Mac but both played and had some mongrel about them. In addition, both are/were clever tacticians. Coetzee has none of that.

I believe that both Mallett and White could both turn this squad around. Watch White win the Top 14 in France this year or at least next.

 

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The biggest issue for me is far too many people keep blaming the quota players and quota policies, yet the biggest issue is actually many white players and sub standard coaches.

Even a guy like Robbie Deans would be able to take that exact same side that AC had on Saturday and have them beat that Argie side and I have no doubt about that. Because we have seen what RD did with the Aussie side with what he had to work with.

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46 minutes ago, supersupporter said:

The biggest issue for me is far too many people keep blaming the quota players and quota policies, yet the biggest issue is actually many white players and sub standard coaches.

Even a guy like Robbie Deans would be able to take that exact same side that AC had on Saturday and have them beat that Argie side and I have no doubt about that. Because we have seen what RD did with the Aussie side with what he had to work with.

That is, IMO, over-simplifying the whole issue at hand. The issues in SA rugby started going wrong probably 20 years ago when they, who ever they may be, decided that the way to fix the issue of representation was to start counting the number of faces of darker complexion. The problems facing SA rugby in the nineties are exactly the same as the issues that are facing them today. The only difference is that they think that the solution to fixing the issue is to do the same thing that hasn't been working but just trying a bit harder and throwing more of the same at the issue. That is like drinking more and more paracetamol when you have flu. You can drink ten paracetamols at a time for the flu but it is not going to cure the flu. It will only help for the pain but it will fuck up your stomach at the same time.

The issue is not taking taking the same team and hand them to a different coach. It will only prolong the inevitable further. We will probably win a few games but we will, with a bit of luck, still hover somewhere in the top 10 in the rankings but we will never again be at the top. OK, maybe that is a bit too negative to say never again but who knows.

Had they started, in the nineties, to forget about the make-up of the national side (at that stage) and proactively initiated a proper development program in ALL schools, we would have had a total different kettle of fish today. We would have had a squad of 40+, or more, South African players, irrespective of skin colour, who were all top class. Instead we are sitting with a squad of a number of white players - some quite good, some very average and some mediocre - and a number of POCs - some good and some mediocre. We do not have a single world class player who could walk into any of the top four sides in the world. Maybe Faf, but I have my doubts. We have the same on the coaching team.

Fact is that we are twenty years behind form where we should have been. No Robbie Deans, Eddie Jones, Steve Hansen or whoever is going to fix that. That would be the same as popping more and more paracetamol.

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Let me say this quite plainly, there are guys on this forum who could do a better job forget Robbie Deans or Nick Mallett.

Think of the many opportunities that you see in a game. Too many people sit and just WATCH. We did not try a single rolling maul and that does not have to come from a lineout.

We did not try a single "set move" from set piece. We did not try the little chip over scrum, maul or ruck for a blindsider to run onto supported by loosies. Instead the halfbacks are fixated with the need to kick huge into space. Look for space just behind a rush defense.

There are so mnay things to improve on.

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3 minutes ago, vlagman said:

Fact is that we are twenty years behind form where we should have been. No Robbie Deans, Eddie Jones, Steve Hansen or whoever is going to fix that. That would be the same as popping more and more paracetamol.

So you do not think that AC is a bad coach?

I accept that the issue runs deep, but that is not a bad group of players and I still believe that a good coach can extract the best talent and work with it. I think you are being a little harsh on that squad of players. Maybe it's your Bulls bias :) . But, for me I think a good coach will get better results and will get us wins.

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4 minutes ago, Arlecchino said:

Let me say this quite plainly, there are guys on this forum who could do a better job forget Robbie Deans or Nick Mallett.

Think of the many opportunities that you see in a game. Too many people sit and just WATCH. We did not try a single rolling maul and that does not have to come from a lineout.

We did not try a single "set move" from set piece. We did not try the little chip over scrum, maul or ruck for a blindsider to run onto supported by loosies. Instead the halfbacks are fixated with the need to kick huge into space. Look for space just behind a rush defense.

There are so mnay things to improve on.

This all explains why this coach is just shit, because he takes players who for the Lions played oiutstanding rugby to the extent that they hammered some NZ sides. These same guys are mere shadows of what we have seen from them.

I somehoe recall another WP coach douing the same to Bok Rugby, Carel Du Plessis also seemed to get the worst from Henry Honiball.

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6 minutes ago, Arlecchino said:

Let me say this quite plainly, there are guys on this forum who could do a better job forget Robbie Deans or Nick Mallett.

Think of the many opportunities that you see in a game. Too many people sit and just WATCH. We did not try a single rolling maul and that does not have to come from a lineout.

We did not try a single "set move" from set piece. We did not try the little chip over scrum, maul or ruck for a blindsider to run onto supported by loosies. Instead the halfbacks are ordered with the need to kick huge into space. Look for space just behind a rush defense.

There are so mnay things to improve on.

Fixed

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7 minutes ago, supersupporter said:

So you do not think that AC is a bad coach?

I accept that the issue runs deep, but that is not a bad group of players and I still believe that a good coach can extract the best talent and work with it. I think you are being a little harsh on that squad of players. Maybe it's your Bulls bias :) . But, for me I think a good coach will get better results and will get us wins.

No. You are putting words in my mouth. Have you missed this?

 

14 minutes ago, vlagman said:

We do not have a single world class player who could walk into any of the top four sides in the world. Maybe Faf, but I have my doubts. We have the same on the coaching team.

 

 

9 minutes ago, supersupporter said:

Maybe it's your Bulls bias

I challenge you to find a post in the last number of years where I have expressed any bias towards the Bulls. I have no illusions about the Bulls and hasn't had any for a very long time. In fact, IIRC I have been relentless in my criticism towards the Bulls.

12 minutes ago, supersupporter said:

But, for me I think a good coach will get better results and will get us wins.

I agree. Just as I agree that paracetamol would help for the headache and pain when you have flu. Then you also have to concede that winning the odd game here or there is going to help us to solve the issues, with SA rugby, as much as what paracetamol is going to help to cure your flu.

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barlee there are so many things that have been said about SARU, Development, Coaches. Some of it in open forum and some in my blog.

We are not stupid on this forum. We know sport and we know rugby as is the case here in particular. It does not take a genius to look at how the Boks have played against Ireland and now Argetina to know that we are on a hiding to nothing.

No amount of wailing and gnashing of teeth in irrational emotion will solve the base problem of basics and racism.

SASCOC; SRSA are bound together to force sport federations to toe their line. 

As I have said many times and this has been borne out by the admission from Gideon Sam that "We have very poor administrators in sport.”

http://www.iol.co.za/sport/sascoc-need-to-stop-playing-it-again-sam-2061809

This admission goes to the heart of the problem. This is what I wrote the other day to a friend who is a sport journalist:

"I hope you are well and heartened by some of the most recent events.

Sunette’s stand against the treatment she has suffered is a crack in the door. The article by Kevin McCullum in The Tribune is revealing and the column by Ross Tucker entitled “You Are Not Alone” is supportive. However, the thrust of the revelations are surely contained in the admission/accusation by Sam in that “we have very poor administrators in sport”. We know this and have been saying it for years but it needs a careful examination and analysis. Most of the good administrators have been driven out by politicians.

To me this admission is an invitation for an audit across the board. I do not mean JUST a financial audit, but an examination of promises v performance.

What do the constitutions of the various sport bodies promise/suggest in their clearly stated “Objectives” and what is actually delivered? How many federations have up to date constitutions and can produce coherent Business Plans, Budgets and Marketing Plans? How many can show that they are performing in such a way as to give confidence to current or future sponsorship?

Sam talks as though the lack of funds is the fault of business but what confidence has been shown to potential investors who cannot invest in sport and reclaim from the tax man. They must look at their investment as part of their advertising spend and be able to show some form of measurement against that spend. Currently there are very few sports with such a profile.

In addition, why would kids want to be involved in a particular sport – what makes it attractive? How do we get to kids in rural areas and present them with a menu of sport such as is being offered at Michaelhouse, Queens, Dale, Bishops, Grey, St Stithians, St Johns and others? What is the conduit from school to the highest form of representation? How many universities are offering full sports programmes? What of the club structure?

Unwittingly Sam has got right to the heart of the problem and stabbed himself and a huge number of wannabee politicians in the back including Danny Jordaan. He has suggested a full audit of sport by the SRSA and all federations.

What are your thoughts on strategy now?"

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Help me understand this - there are 4.5 million people in New Zealand - 50% male = 2.25 million. SA has 55 million, ie roughly 27.5 million males.

So............how come SA somehow cannot produce one, not one flyhalf of the same quality as Beauden Barrett?

Besides watching the Lions, Barrett's an absolute  delight to watch on the rugby field!!

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2 minutes ago, J1M1 said:

Help me understand this - there are 4.5 million people in New Zealand - 50% male = 2.25 million. SA has 55 million, ie roughly 27.5 million males.

So............how come SA somehow cannot produce one, not one flyhalf of the same quality as Beauden Barrett?

Besides watching the Lions, Barrett's an absolute  delight to watch on the rugby field!!

Barrett was a bench player and he wanted to be a starter so he went out in SR and proved it, and when he got his chance to play, he showed the NZ coach.

We have far too many players who feel entitled to their position and coaches will not drop players because they carry some sort of reputation of being the next next next big thing. Some players need to brought down a peg or 2. And for me, I would like to see Snyman from the Bulls and Mostert brought in the starting 23.

If players do not perform for a few games they need to be dropped and let someone else prove themselves, we cannot keep having this attitude of trying to play players into form. Shit, NZ dropped Savea if that is not what a national coach has to do then I do not know.

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15 minutes ago, supersupporter said:

So Mvovo replaces Combrinck in the squad..why not Skosan?

Mvovo has more experience.

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1 hour ago, Arlecchino said:

New Zealand won 18 medals at Rio 2016. 4; 9 ;5

Great Britain won 27 Gold; 23 Silver and 17 bronze.

 

Point taken.

Sam & Reddy (sounds like a 60's duo) will hopefully have their day before a judge

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1 hour ago, supersupporter said:

Barrett was a bench player and he wanted to be a starter so he went out in SR and proved it, and when he got his chance to play, he showed the NZ coach.

We have far too many players who feel entitled to their position and coaches will not drop players because they carry some sort of reputation of being the next next next big thing. Some players need to brought down a peg or 2. And for me, I would like to see Snyman from the Bulls and Mostert brought in the starting 23.

If players do not perform for a few games they need to be dropped and let someone else prove themselves, we cannot keep having this attitude of trying to play players into form. Shit, NZ dropped Savea if that is not what a national coach has to do then I do not know.

Who identifies our rugby talent from a young age?

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14 minutes ago, taipan said:

SARU.

Maybe that explains just about everything................?

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18 minutes ago, J1M1 said:

Who identifies our rugby talent from a young age?

 

15 minutes ago, taipan said:

SARU.

I think how they are identified could be more interesting than who does it. :bounce:

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